I get a lot of feedback around the web and from writers that I am harsh. I don’t see myself as being harsh, just honest. Telling it the way I’m seeing it from thirty-plus-years of writing, editing, and sitting in a publisher’s chair.
Michael A. Stackpole and I came into this business at the same time and have talked business a great deal over the years, and often haven’t completely agreed. But he just did a wonderful post about the coming battle between traditional (legacy writers) and indie publishing writers. Blunt and spot on the money. Run there now and read it.
One side note: I also get a ton of comments about how I have left traditional publishing for indie publishing and am now one of the main pushers of indie publishing. Well, that’s wrong. I think any smart writer will be doing both. I am doing both. My wife, Kristine Kathryn Rusch, is doing both. And Michael A. Stackpole is doing both.
All I have been trying to do is help writers get smart and add in indie publishing to their mix. And stunningly, many long-term professional writers are doing just that.
I know the fact that we do both traditional (legacy) publishing and indie publishing will be ignored by those of you who want to tear me or Mike or Kris down, as Mike talks about. No issue. We play in both worlds. Why? Because, oh yeah, we’re professional writers. And we have to make a living.
And for some reason the three of us have gotten tired of just sitting and watching the stupidity and shaking our heads in disgust.
But that said, over the last year I have become strident about one aspect of legacy (traditional) publishing. Agents and their use to us all. I just don’t think we writers need them any more.
Remember, I had three great agents that I liked and that worked for me. But in the same breath, I haven’t had an agent for seven years now and am selling more to traditional publishing, more overseas, and getting Hollywood options. All without an agent.
Agents, in the last year or so, have changed. Dramatically, and I’m not just talking about the stupidity of agents as publishers, which to this day I think is beyond words in levels of stupidity. This weekend I helped over twenty professional writers understand how really, really simple it is to be their own agent and us IP attorneys for help with contracts. It is stunningly simple, actually, if you let yourself get out of the myth of needing an agent.
Most of the published novelists in the room had had agents and fired them at one point or another. A couple were on the verge of firing their agent so they came to this workshop. A number of people in the room had recently sold first novels and done so without an agent, but all had hired an IP attorney for help with the contract.
So folks, believe what you will about me. I am trying to help writers and myself add into my income stream indie publishing. But if I thought indie publishing was the only way, why did I, this very morning work with writers on helping them make submissions to traditional publishers?
The answer, once again: I think the best plan for all of us is to use both sides.
I use both sides. Sure, I publish under pen names, which is why I am free to speak like I do here. This name is an old media hack name to many people, even though I haven’t done a media novel in over nine years now.
But the truth is, I’m enjoying my writing now more than I ever have under all my pen names. I am free to write the strange stories without worrying about the money return, because I know as an indie publisher, there will be money flowing from everything I write.
I am free to spend as many hours a day as I want writing without fear of some agent or editor telling me not to work so hard.
I am free to make a living with my fiction by both selling books to traditional publishers and also publishing my own through a company I partially own called WMG Publishing.
And why any writer would fight against that freedom, the extra money, and the fun of not being controlled is beyond me.
But as Mike so perfectly points out, that is what is happening. Go read his blog. It’s a stunner and very well said and I do agree completely. This war between writers will not be civil. And yup, that makes me harsh.
But honestly, I’m having so much fun with my writing, I don’t much care what people think.
Enjoy. http://www.michaelastackpole.com/?p=2510
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I don’t think you’re being harsh at all. I’m mostly a lurker, but I’ve been posting links from yours and Kris’s blogs on several writers loops, saying they were “must reads.” You’re saying things in public that other writers have been saying in private.
Now, if you could do the same thing for politics…
Great Article. I enjoyed Mike’s, too.
Friday the 13th, I got my DBA and started a business checking account. I have my first cover created (not as good as I’d like, but I can change it later) and 4 short stories already formated. Tomorrow the checking account should go online, and when it does I’ll upload to Kindle and the others.
I’m halfway through formating, last read through of the first novel I’ll post, with a trilogy and five urban fantasy novels (4 are 1st drafts) in the wings, as well as another 35 short stories.
Times are tough, and every little bit helps. Thank you for all the help you, Kris, and Mike have provided with your posts on the industry, and indie publishing in particular.
Truth always “sounds” harsh to those wishing “political” correctness. Sadly many in the world, particularly in the USA, speak to never “offend”, removing any truth that may have been visible.
Dean, your words are bell ringing clear; wavering would be unjust to your audience. I certainly don’t want a watered down message anymore than you want to tell it that way.
Who would have thought 10 years ago that the epicenter of publishing business truth would be found in a small Oregon village. Being an “insider”, I also know it would NEVER have come from NY.
Cheers, -Steve
No way you are harsh, Dean.
Those that think so are simply doing their best to continue to hide the pink elephant in the middle of their living room.
Just thinking on the Pen Name comment – so is Dean Wesley Smith your *real name* or a *pen name* (also if you and Mike got into the biz at the same time, perhaps one of you is the pen name identity of the other … need to see if I can trick you into a Victor Steiner-Davion give away reference
Perhaps Agents are going feral because they are better at seeing the writing on the wall than writers – who they know a good number of who will play “happy sheep”. Rather than give up agenting, they decide to turn shark out of desparation at the brave new world.
Orin, LOL. No, trust me, Dean Wesley Smith is my real name and Mike and I are two different writers. Thankfully. We all need the likes of Mike Stackpole and many more like him. For years he was talking to me and Kris about these changes coming, and I just didn’t want to look. When he finally got through to me and I raised my head from the computer screen and looked around, I was so stunned, I couldn’t keep my mouth shut.
You and Kristine and Joe and Michael have changed my life by telling the truth when maybe nobody else would. Thank you!
Keep it comng, Dean, whatever people call it. It helps to keep us new writers grounded. I can’t believe now that I had all the fears I had a year ago about writing and publishing before coming over here and getting the straight from you in no uncertain terms. It kicked the fear out of me.
Thanks a whole bunch.
Sometimes I wonder if you aren’t being harsh enough, Dean. I’ve publicly resurfaced only a few weeks back, and already I’ve gotten some pointed IMs about my “sudden” conversion to ebooks. Which I find amusing, because even though -I- wasn’t publishing my work, my game company has been doing VERY well with epubs for about two years now.
Add to that, it’s only been a few weeks and I’m already tired of the whining. Arguments and spirited…debate…I can handle. I enjoy. But whining drives me crazy. I don’t care if you agree with Dean, with Mike, with Kris, with any of us. It’s called information and I see nothing wrong with spreading what I believe is good info for anyone to read (and then judge for themselves). You think someone is wrong, you are free to say so. But to whine about it or act like someone just kicked on your kitten… man!
I had a writer tell me on the phone yesterday that epublishing will never work. It’s just a few lucky bastards discounting bad fiction. (I count three likely myths in that last sentence.) I pointed out that of my first three stories put on amazon, one of them has sold, consistently from DAy 1, about 5-8 copies a day. His reply? “Well there is no way that can last.”
At that point I felt like just backing away slowly. Subtle, though, jsut isn’t my style. (shocking). I said I thought he was right. It wouldn’t last. I expect it to get BETTER. Then I asked him how bad he thought my fiction had to be to doing well as an epub.
That’s more or less where he backed away slowly.
Writer Courtney Milan gives a cogent example of why an agent setting himself up as his clients’ e-publisher creates a glaring conflict of interest:
http://www.courtneymilan.com/ramblings/2011/05/13/no-no-and-no/comment-page-1/#comment-17911
Laura, that post of Courtney’s really was a good one. Thanks for posting the link. Wow, her simple math sure made the idea come clear, very clear. So again I stand by my statement that any agent going into being a publisher is becoming a scammer and as Courtney said, run to your computer and fire them at once. Thanks, Laura, for the link. And Courtney, if you stop by here, thanks again for the very clear post and math. Wonderful. And scary.
Pfft, you aren’t harsh. You’re being forthright about a negative opinion—which some folks deem “rude” and “harsh”, because they think they themselves have no right to express a negative opinion, either because they aren’t self-confident or because they believe that opinions are entirely subjective and have no objective component.
The self-publishing world is different and ergo scary to some. Some folks’ reaction to fear—or having their beliefs challenged—is to lash out.
The “Never!” and “Only!” self-pub extremes are here to stay, but hopefully more folks will ride the pendulum to the middle.
Dean,
Myself, I’d rather associate with someone who is perhaps a trifle too blunt sometimes, but speaks his mind honestly, than with someone who waffles and mouths niceties. I’m sometimes told I’m harsh too, so I guess I can relate. But, like my mother-in-law told me (when explaining why…gasp…she likes me): people always know where I stand. So yeah, keep on being blunt. It’s a good thing.
Thanks as always.
Dean, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone disagree with you in the comments on this blog.
Oh, one time, someone named C.E. wrote a long post with his/her own ideas on how to prep a document for e-publishing, and a few days ago, someone named Mary seemed mildly concerned over you calling your peers stupid. But these were both very mild *possible* disagreements.
99.9 percent of the people posting here seem to be cheering you on.
I guess that another interesting thing he mentions in passing is that he writes almost all his published books in under a month. So, another strike against the fast = bad myth.
Orin, no way is DWS the same as Stackpole. I know this for a fact.
Plus Dean is WAY better looking….
Dean said: “We play in both worlds. Why? Because, oh yeah, we’re professional writers. And we have to make a living.”
That’s why I approach publishing options per project. It changes depending upon what I am doing. After all, my epic fantasy will do best with a smaller publisher (and I just signed with one). Whereas, my blogging reference guide for fiction authors will do best self-published (which I’m in the process of doing). etc etc
This is my career. I need to make the best choices for me and my work.
Carolyn Heilbrun said that women are called “strident” when they tell the truth.
Please keep being strident, even though you are a guy.
Also, maybe it’s the wild-wild-west picture up there that’s scaring people. I think it’s cool.
TK Kenyon
I read Mike Stackpole’s wonderful post and sat back and said, “Wow, Mike. People thought I was harsh.” So that’s why I started my post pushing people to that post by saying that. He just pulls no punches. Period. And I love that about Mike.
Actually, when people recommend my blog, they often will tell people that I am harsh and blunt. And should be taken with a grain of salt. Hell, anything on the internet should be checked and taken with a grain of salt and that includes me and Mike and someone talking about how perfect agents are. Any side of this. That’s the nature of the internet.
And most importantly, you must look at the credentials of the person talking. I am clear to state that I have over a hundred published (traditionally) novels, hundreds of short stories, I have been an editor in numbers of places, including Pocket Books, and have been a publisher of Pulphouse which was the 5th largest publisher of science fiction/fantasy/horror in the nation for about five years. And I am married to Kristine Kathryn Rusch, and that for a decade now we have been teaching young professional writers. Not beginners. Professionals, and thus are in touch with how it is working for the new pros coming in.
So when you get someone posting or blogging like the Tahlia women who commented below, check out her credentials as well. See why she is spouting all the myths. How many books? How long has she been around? Things like that. And then as a reader, taking both of us with grains of salt, decide what makes sense to you.
Understand that it is perfectly normal for a writer to try to tell others the way they came in and what works for them. And it usually takes a decade plus of publishing before you, as a writer, start realizing that publishing has changed and your method is no longer valid for the new writers coming in. And even more important, most writers don’t make it past a few novels in their careers. I have a great friend who is a bookseller, and he called me a neo-pro for a long time. One day I asked him when I would stop being a neo-pro to be ignored, how many novels would it take. (Honestly, my little ego was getting hurt by his attitude. I was selling books, damn it, I had a writer to be called a professional writer.) Without hesitation he said, “Ten.” So I asked him why ten and he said “Most writers don’t make it that far. “You publish ten novels, I’ll call you a professional.” And since I went by ten, he has, and somewhere about twenty I started to understand what he had meant and why he had that policy.
Great Website Dean! Glad I found it today and I’ve read a number of your posts and must agree. Harsh?–Nah, I don’t think so at all.
Right now is a pivotal period in the book publishing biz and the present and future of many book genres will do very well in the Ebook format. Not all will. Some will sell better in paper.
Some writers will do better with a legacy publisher and some will not. Some authors need someone to hold their hand and others won’t. Thanks for taking the time to post your take.
Yup, you’re right. Great article.
You’re being too easy on people, Dean.
There are still people who don’t get it.
I just read an agent blog where the ‘top’ agent advised a person that their novel was dead because it had been rejected by 7 editors.
7.
I get rejected by my cat at least 7 times a day…
Joemontana, Thanks! And seven. Hmmm, not sure if that means I won the argument that Laura Resnick and I have had on other blog comments or she did. I seem to remember I said agents had eight or nine editor friends they mailed to and Laura said they have three or four. Seven is in the middle. (grin)
I heard of one agent recently who mailed a manuscript ten times before giving up, but I have heard of numbers of other agents recently who called a manuscript dead at four editor rejections. So I think Laura is winning.
Sad for all writers with agents, isn’t it?
And writers want to trust these same people with doing electronic publishing, POD publishing, and then keeping care of updates FOREVER? Yeah, that’s going to happen just as soon as I take a stroll out across the water of the ocean outside my window. Maybe I could walk out to that fishing boat a half mile off the beach. No big deal, right?
I’m not sure Dean will like this link (and if not, just don’t approve this post; no problem), but it’s so hilarious (in all the wrong ways), I really had to share:
http://blog.wylie-merrick.com/2011/05/once-and-future-literary-agent.html
Oh, wow, Laura. That link just made me shudder.
Here is the underlying attitude in that post that bothers me more than anything else:
1) Agents were too restricted before… okay, let me simply ask “How??” And what will you do now to writers without those imaginary restrictions??? Yikes!!
2) That writers must be taken care of. I HATE that condescending tone that editors and agents have gotten into. And am insulted by it, to be honest. But what worries me about this attitude is that most writers aren’t insulted by the attitude that they are babies and must be taken care of. But I am insulted enough for all of us, I guess.
Thanks, Laura, I think, for yet another example of how really frightening the myths are out there and where they are coming from. Just like all those myths that one women spouted in a comment below, it is scary.
I don’t think you’re harsh. I think you’re a champion of writers.
If I may, my two favorite quotes from that link:
“Everything our agency did was scrutinized beyond rational measure, constantly monitored, and reported on by writers’ advocacy groups.”
And:
“It’s a relief to know that those who held us to those tight standards over the years will cease to have a voice in the new role agents can play in publishing.”
I’m not even going to comment. I think those quotes speak for themselves.
Laura, yup, scary beyond words. When the agent thought they were being monitored and now feel free to do what they want. Wow. Stunning, just stunning. And even more stunning, a ton of writers will flock to them to be screwed. Ahh, well, at least there is an entire agency full of writers who just won’t be around long. (Oh, wait, was that harsh?)
Tahlia woman? Did you decide not to approve her post?
Rule #7: Dean is not allowed to use names.
Oh, her post was under another topic. Sigh…It was just so outstandingly funny in the thickness of myths, I forgot I had moved to this comment stream. (grin)
I was one of those 20+ writers this weekend and you certainly weren’t “harsh”. You burst several bubbles that were close to my heart, but — once the shock wore off — I realized a weight had been lifted off my shoulders and my writing could dance again!
Thanks, Dean. Keep up the good work.
You’re harsh? Puh-lease. As a former-stupid author, I thank you for saving my sanity.
I’ve had my share of agents and will never go that route again. My IP lawyer did more for me than all of them combined. My only regret was I didn’t find your blog sooner. If I had, it might have saved me a world of hurt.
Dean, I would like to quote one of your comments above in my blog post on Friday. I’ve seen a lot of Indies getting upset when people say they do have to earn their spurs, and I’m telling a story about Clarion, and I thought your story about the bookseller and the “neo-pro” fits right in.
I did edit slightly for clarity (paragraphs, and also you put in “writer” for “right” at one point):
“I have a great friend who is a bookseller, and he called me a neo-pro for a long time. One day I asked him when I would stop being a neo-pro … , how many novels would it take. (Honestly, my little ego was getting hurt by his attitude. I was selling books, damn it, I had a right to be called a professional writer.)
Without hesitation he said, ‘Ten.’ So I asked him why ten and he said ‘Most writers don’t make it that far. You publish ten novels, I’ll call you a professional.’
And since I went by ten, he has, and somewhere about twenty I started to understand what he had meant and why he had that policy.”
Do you have a problem with being quoted this way?
Camille
Camille, great by me. And thanks for the typo fixes.
I just had a thought, relating to authors and agents. I don’t know of any freelancers with agents who negotiate their contracts or shop them to clients or give them market advice or anything. The freelancer is responsible for himself (or herself).
Aren’t authors just another form of freelancer?
Carradee, I have read your post two completely different ways, so I’m afraid to comment. Might want to try that again. (grin)
Zoe, thanks for the nice comments in your most recent blog post. Very nice and your post was right on the money.
And thank you for once again pounding that a fast writer is just a writer that types more than anyone else, that stays planted in the chair longer than anyone else. I’m fast because I work more hours. No because I can type fast, which I can’t. Thanks!!
Read it, folks. Great article. And Zoe was very nice to my ego. (grin)
http://zoewinters.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/how-writers-are-like-road-construction-workers/
Hey Dean. Why don’t you wave a red flag at a bull while you are at it?
So I dug around and found Tahlia’s comment. (It’s under a SHort Summary of Everything for those who haven’t seen it).
Wow! She obviously means well, but has she ever bought into the old business model. She’s claiming things in there that were out of date 4-5 years ago.
The most amusing thing, though? her comment that this new system will only work for a “good” book.
Umm… yeah.
And the old system wasn’t weighted in that direction as well? The overall #1 rule is and always shall be, write a damn good book, the best book you can, and THEN deal with the rest.
I’m new to this discussion and more of a reader following the industry than an author (I’ve been primarily reading ebooks since 2001), so forgive any ignorance I may show.
A quote from http://blog.wylie-merrick.com/2011/05/once-and-future-literary-agent.html (posted by Laura Resnick) jumped out at me:
“It’s also quite possible that they could take over the packager’s role, hiring authors to write on a work-for-hire basis, finishing the rest of the process then offering the completed package to publishers, both in E and in print.”
Do I understand this correctly? Is the idea to pay an author a flat, one-time fee to write and then let the agent collect *all* royalties?
Yup, Erik, you read that right. And no surprise. The Wylie agency is the scariest place on the planet.
Now you’re making me come out of the bat cave, to say hi. It’s my day off anyway, which is why I get into so much trouble! LOL
I can’t be nice enough to your ego. If I’m ever rolling around in Scrooge McDuck money I have a feeling it will be because I listened to you and stopped making excuses about why I “can’t write today”.
I’ve also fallen more in love with writing (the actual act an process) than I ever was before. I’m having fun now that I’m over this nonsense about suffering and it all taking a million years.
“Writers are f*cking lazy.”
LOL. Thank you Zoe! This needs to be on a T-shirt and sold at writer conventions.
Zoe, I just read your post. It’s so true it cracks me up–especially about all the ways we waste time. Don’t tell people! It was supposed to be our secret. But you’re so right about what you said in there. Nicely motivating and myth-busting for those who don’t get it!
Oh, my. I apologize on that half-baked thought; I don’t think in transitions, and that really doesn’t make sense w/o one. Bad me.
Trying again:
I’ve never heard anyone assume your average freelancer needs someone to act as negotiator, packager, marketer. The freelance copywriter, technical writer, ghostwriter, etc., is responsible for himself/herself.
Yet people do assume that an author needs an agent.
Are not authors another form of freelancer?
So why do people presume that authors can’t act like the freelancers they are?
Now I understand, Carradee, and totally agree, of course. You are spot on the money. One of the many puzzling things I also admit.
Harsh, troublemakers, rabble-rousers! You and Kris and Stackpole, shame on your pointing out that the emperor is naked! Just because he is? What kind of reason is that? Everybody knows that truth is no defense in fiction!
One night, there will be knock your door and agents and publishers with pitchforks and torches and tar and feather will out there, Dean …
LOL..Steve….or I hope I’m laughing…feathers make me sneeze…
Oh, dear. I Just posted on the RJ Keller blog. Drat. I shouldn’t have.
I wrote 60,000 words last month. And I’m at over 40,000 words this month (we are on the 18th). And I’ve written that many words working less than three hours a day.
To be honest, I feel quite lazy. I could be writing a lot more.
Hey, Dean, you’re not being harsh. (I would say you’re being measured, and direct.) But that’s not really the point. You’re also not wrong. (Near as I can tell, just about all of what you say is right on target.) But THAT’S not really the point either.
I think the point is you are being CLEAR. Your points are closely argued and clearly presented. You document your examples. You are explicit about your background and qualifications to discuss the matters at hand. And you ACTUALLY do the math. Who can object to that?
Whether people agree with you or not, you’ve set up a blog where readers can easily understand what you’re saying and (if they choose) test your points against other sources of information. I am extremely grateful for people like you and Kris and Konrath and Winters and Stackpole and Hocking who are being up front about their experiences. Because in order to survive in this new publishing world, writers need to LEARN. And people like you are making that easy. And I think THAT’S the point.
Thanks again and please keep up the good work!
Steven Mohan, Jr.
I just hit publish on the post where I quote Dean about being a “neo-pro.”
http://daringnovelist.blogspot.com/2011/05/on-hatchlings-and-neo-pros-when-is.html
It’s more of a ramble than a focused post, but I think it’s indirectly related to what we’re talking about here. I’ve been hearing way too many newbies and indies who have problems dealing with harsh old-timers.
Camille
For heaven’s sake, Dean, will you put one of the tweet widgets on your blog? Or if you have one and I haven’t found it, move it to under your articles…
I’m WAY too lazy and have too many other things to do to do a copy paste whatnot and have to open twitter deck when I want to tweet about your articles! Sheesh.
J.R., I get confused. Isn’t that what I have up in the right hand corner of the page with the RSS and Facebook stuff? Or do you mean something else? Old recovering Luddite here. (grin)
Dean: I think the one you have allows people to follow you, but doesn’t make it a “one-click” to tweet a link to this post.
I use a widget called “addthis.”
However, J.R.? You can get an AddThis plugin for your browser which allows you to tweet or digg or stumble ANY webpage you come across. You don’t need Dean to do it for you.
Thanks, Camille, I’ll check it out.
Okay, added what they had to the bottom of this post. Is that was you mean? I got it at addthis.com
Yep, that’s it.
I keep it in my sidebar rather than the posts themselves, because it will tweet whatever page you happen to be on whether it’s in the post or the sidebar — and once it’s in the template, you don’t have to remember to paste it into each post.
(I also think I picked a different “look” but I have your blog on large type so I can read it in the kitchen, so that may be throwing off the look of the widget.)