Series Note: I am now working on updating each chapter and putting together this book, finally, after over 100,000 words that started back in 2009. So I am updating each chapter and putting it up here now for those who have not seen them.
However, since I started this series, agents and what they are doing in publishing has changed dramatically. In fact, things have changed so dramatically since I started this book concerning agents, I am not, repeat, not going to include the agent posts as reprints here.
Why? Can’t stomach it is why. I will explain below.
If you want to read the old posts, including tons and tons of great comments, not updated at all, simply follow the links under the tab at the top of the page. Lots of history about agents as well as myths.
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My Reasons for Not Putting All the Chapters Up Again
Over a dozen or so chapters in this book eventually will be about the myths of agents if agents survive long enough. As I wrote the chapters on agents, and the discussion continued, I grew to hate this topic.
And hate is the right word.
I hate this topic because, for lack of a better way of saying it, writers are just stupid when it comes to talking or thinking about agents.
That’s how powerful the myths around agents have become in the last ten to twenty years. Luckily for all of us, the changes in the publishing field are killing the entire need for agents. Agents vanishing or shrinking down to a tiny part of the business will kill many of the myths at the same time, which is one reason I have decided to not, at this moment, try to update the agent chapters.
Second reason: I hate this topic.
Let me list some of the major myths around agents that have grown in the last twenty years and you can agree or disagree as you want. But before you come screaming at me, go read the original posts on these topics. And the comments on those posts. Again, just click on the tab at the top of the page for the full list of chapters in Killing the Sacred Cows of Publishing.
Myth #1: You must have an agent to sell a book.
Too stupid a myth for words, yet new writers will defend this to the death even though they don’t know. They just want to believe. And of course, that’s what the guidelines say and writers are sheep when it comes to guidelines. You say the word “guideline” and a new writer’s brain just shuts off.
Myth #2: Agents know markets.
Nope. They have about six editors they know and who know them and if your book happens to fit into what those editors want, you are golden. If not, they either reject your book or worse, have you rewrite it to try to get it to fit.
Myth #3: Agents care about writers first.
Of course not, they care about their own business and could not give a crap about you. If you get in the way of their relationship with an editor or publisher, you are gone. Flat truth. (Yup, just the person you want negotiating for you, right?)
Myth #4: Agents can give career advice.
Nope. Every writer is different. If you are not listening to yourself, writing only what you want to write, and standing up for your own art, you are lost. Never listen to an agent about career advice. Ever. See Myth #3.
Myth #5: Agents sell your books overseas.
Nope, not anymore. Overseas (and Hollywood) contacts come to the writer. All your agent or overseas agent can do is screw up the deal or keep your money or both.
Myth #6: Agents know contracts.
Nope, not unless they are an IP attorney as well. In fact there are a couple pending suits that writers are challenging the agent who did negotiate a contract without a legal license and screwed up the contract. Writers are trying to recover damages from the agents on this premise. If one actually gets filed instead of settled out of court, this could rock everything. Go get an attorney, folks. An IP lawyer. Save yourself a ton of money.
Myth #7: You must give all your money to your agent first.
This is the worst myth and the most deadly. You are giving all your income to a total stranger who has no license to do anything, and then also giving them all the paperwork with that money. You would never do this on the street or in any other business, yet writers do this with agents as if it’s a good thing. Split payments or fire your agent. Period.
I covered a few other myths in long posts, like trust, agents taking care of writers, asking your agent for permission, and so on.
And I did not cover the myth that your agent can become your publisher. I am hoping some agency court cases that are pending will stop that stupidity shortly so I don’t have to write about it.
My Suggestion of What to Do
The publishing business is changing so fast and so quickly, I doubt agents will be of value to most writers in two years.
So just do it yourself for two years.
That’s my suggestion. Publishers are moving back to buying directly from writers. Slush piles will vanish in exchange for editors finding content in the indie published world. IP lawyers are taking over negotiating contracts, and overseas publishers work directly with the writers through e-mail. Nothing for an agent to do now.
Before you go signing some ugly agency agreement (that was a chapter as well) where you give someone 15% and a controlling interest in your copyright, or worse yet, go have an agent actually try to publish your work, stop.
Just STOP!!
Plug back in your business brain and think for a minute. Your knee is jerking, your face is red, you are breathing hard because of the agent myths.
Just STOP!! Think.
You can do everything for yourself an agent can do.
Let me say that again: You can do everything an agent can do. You care about your own work. An agent does not. Do it yourself and just take a wait-and-see attitude toward agents.
Many, many long-term writers, me included, are asking publishers what they can do for us now that we can’t do for ourselves. And we are not getting good responses.
Well, ask the agent you are thinking of taking on the same question. Or if you have an agent, ask yourself honestly what they are really doing for you now for the 15%. What can they do for you that is worth 15% forever???
Can they sell the book for you? Nope. (If you have an agent, how many books have they turned back to you because they did not fit the agents idea of being “marketable,” meaning it didn’t fit their six editor friend’s lists.)
Can they negotiate the contract? Nope, a simple IP attorney on a small retainer will do it better. (Agents are not lawyers, don’t let them near legal documents of any kind. Besides, they care about the publishers, not you. They will not fight for you any more.)
Can they sell your books overseas or to Hollywood? Nope. You can do that better just answering e-mails and having your work up electronically so overseas publishers and Hollywood producers can find it.
And so on and so on. Agents can’t do anything for you that you can’t do yourself. And if you think an agent will save you time, you really have a lot to learn about agents. You will spend more time and energy and metal energy working around and for and through your agent than if you didn’t have one. Honest. I can’t begin to tell you how many books I didn’t write because I figured my agent wouldn’t like it.
I had three great agents over a lot of years. I liked all three and all three did a great job for me when I asked. But as I have said many times, in over 100 book sales to traditional publishing, I sold every book myself. No agent every sold a book for me.
I have NOT had an agent for seven years and have done better for myself. Sure, you can toss that off to me being me. Go ahead, I love that excuse. But until you start taking control over your own career, you won’t have the same knowledge I do either.
The agent myths are very, very powerful. Avoid them for at least two years, do it yourself, then see what an agent can do for you in two or three years. Of course, that may be a moot point if most agents are gone in two or three years.
Publishing is changing. Agents are going the way of the buggy whip. A few people will still need them, but not many. And that change will be nothing but good for writers as a class.
And maybe I won’t even have to put the dozen chapters into the final book. A dozen or so myths just gone with the changes in the industry. Wouldn’t that be wonderful?
*grin*
You know, Dean, my first introduction to you was the original Sacred Cows post about agents selling novels. It was January of this year, and I was just getting started on Masters of the Sun (my first book. Just recently published in ebook, btw. Feeling good about that.). Since I was curious what to do with it when I finished, I was listening to an older “Writing Excuses” episode about agents (even before I’d begun writing all I’d ever heard was that having an agent was absolutely necessary. Heck, when my sister got an agent for her book, I figured she had it MADE!). The guys were talking about…you. And that particular post, and the internet explosion that followed. Well shoot, I thought, I’d better see what this guy has to say.
I was blown away. Between your logic, Laura Resnick’s horror stories, and the multitude of other great comments through that whole series of posts, I guess you could say I was tainted for life.
But in a good way.
I totally understand your not wanting to repost and go through that little flamewar again, though.
Michael, yeah, I just couldn’t imagine going through all that again, with the young writers who don’t know any better shouting at me. Not worth it. I figure people can go back and read the old posts and the comments with them. There were great comments on those old posts, folks, from a lot of writers and even a few agents. Worth going back and rereading, even though publishing has changed. Thanks, Michael.
Thanks, M.E., glad these are helping some. Key is keep writing and enjoying the process.
Dean – these posts (and Kris’s site) are already shaping my fledgling writing career. I feel empowered instead of a ploy of the industry. Thank you. We’re listening.
You know where I’ve come down on all this with both agents and publishers compared to indie publishing? The risks are simply too high for big losses with the former, and that gets multiplied with agents involved.
I’ve decided until the dust settles, the least risky route for me is to do it myself. Maybe in five years I’ll evaluate where I’m at with the process, where publishers are at, and decide to go a different route. Or maybe I’ll stick with what I’m doing because it is working for me.
But the risk of dealing with agents and even traditional publishers has become riskier in the past years, not safer. Their rights grabs and hidden accounting is coming back to haunt them, I believe.
R.L., I think you have hit the nail on the head. Risk.
Risk indie publishing your own work. None.
Risk having an agent… time sink, stolen money, bad deals, and so on and so on…
Risk is it. I’ve got to think about this some more and maybe work out a post on this. Risk. Great point. Thanks!
Thanks, Dean. Good, straightforward thinking about agents. I had a big time agent but he dropped me instantly (well, actually, after putting me off for four months) when I sent him a different type of manuscript than the previous one. Don’t blame him. It was a business decision. His business came first and always will. That’s understandable. You just have to realize that about an agent. Go in with your eyes open.
Great post as always. The problem for new writers is they look at 15% and think “Well, I’m not making anything now, that won’t be that much.” But if you’re in it for the long haul, that fee goes up pretty quickly. I’m a new author, JUST published, and in one week, I’ve sold 20 copies, making $40. If I had an agent (and assuming $2.00 is what I’d get off my ebook sales through a publisher, but it’s have to be priced a lot higher than $2.99,) that’s $6 to my agent.
My goal is to sell 150 copies by the end of October. That’s $300 in royalties, $45 for the agent. Again, it LOOKS small. But what happens when my second book comes out, I keep pushing like I am, and both books are selling 200 copies a month, making me $800? Now, it’s $120 a month for the agent.
To a new author, there’s the idea that once that money is rolling in, you won’t miss it because it was gone from the get go. But trust me, when you’re seeing $120 chunks, or more, go out of your check, you feel it. I’m hoping the smart agents go to an hourly or per project fee schedule. After I write a few books, I’d have no problems working with an agent who bills me his or her hours with it justified by what the agency did. Similar to a PR firm. But then again, I will probably just hire a PR firm and an IP lawyer.
And I NEVER, EVER would have considered negotiating a flat fee for anything with my book without you, Dean. I read your blog earlier in the year, and as a newbie, I thought percentages was how it had to work in the publishing world. I’m thankful to be wrong!
Elizabeth, thanks. Flat fees for everything is the only way to go. And IP Lawyers help on contracts is so much better and cheaper than a percentage and a bad agent.
Why so many writers have not caught on to the true costs of agents is that they never see the money. If writers had to actually write those 15% checks to agents, they would question a lot more. But the money vanishes before a writer sees anything, thus one of the reasons this myth has continued for so long.
Timqueeney, yup, you sent your agent a manuscript that didn’t fit with the lists of his six editors he knew and thus would take time and energy to market, so easier to just drop you. Truth of agents I’m afraid. Which is why writers thinking that agents care about them is just so silly. Thanks.
It’s great to read your posts: they are so honest, so open and so, so true.
Would you consider having one of your books published by a commercial/traditional publisher if that organization treated you as an equal partner?
No, I’m not a publisher. That’s just the idea I have–a direct partnership between author and publisher, where publishers do things that authors CAN do, but should not do because it takes time away from writing.
Scott, the equal partner is the only way I work with publishers. It’s not unusual when you don’t have agents in the middle. Only problem is that they pay us so little anymore compared to what we can make with a book on our own. And they are still lost in the produce model of book selling, where books spoil and must be tossed away if they don’t sell quickly. I love the fact that indie published books just sell and sell and sell. Slowly, sure, but right now I can make more money in three or four years with an indie published book than I get from an advance in that same amount of time and the publisher owns the book for a long, long time.
Now understand, I get good advances. And even with advances up into the $50,000 level and higher, I can’t make the math work that I don’t make more money in five years on my own, selling small amounts, than I can in the produce model and losing control of the book for ten years.
So partners, yes. But they are not partners in the amount of money split. And thus is the problem these days. I can get and sell books into every place a traditional publisher can get books. (My books through traditional don’t hit B&N shelves for more than a few days now, and then go to special order, which is easy to get into with POD books as well.)
I get up to 70%. Traditional publishing I get 25% of 70%. And I care more about my book than a publisher can care about a book that came out three months ago. I care all the time. (oops off agent topic here…(grin))
Excellent post, Dean.
I’ve recently reviewed some publishing contracts in which an agent told the author that a contract clause meant exactly the opposite thing of what the contract said.
Of course you’ll get people arguing that they need agents to take care of all the administrative details of different deals, subrights, gaming rights, production, submission, yadda yadda yadda. You know, so they have time to just write.
If they’re that busy with that stuff (really? it’s cutting into writing time that much?), then I’d suggest what they really need is an executive secretary or assistant, not an agent. On flat salary of course, not a percentage. (And yes, I know some writers have both. But why?)
Alastair, a secretary would end up being cheaper than 15% for an agent on all those rights, but writers are math challenged so it will never happen in most cases. But great point.
Passive Guy, yup, I’ve been following your great blog http://www.thepassivevoice.com and folks, if you are not following his discussion on contract terms and agency agreements, you are missing a ton of learning.
Thanks, Passive Guy, for doing that. And if you need an IP lawyer, hire him. His information is on the site.
Dean, I’m surprised you aren’t getting death threats from agents over these posts.
Or are you? Dean? Hello? Has anyone seen Dean? Where is that smoke coming from?…
Sarah, nope, no threats from agents. (grin) Actually, they still talk to me, which tells me they don’t read this, or more likely they know that this myth about them is so strong, they still can get lots of writers to give away all their money and paperwork on that money without asking a question or even doing a background check. So they don’t worry about this little blog. I’m just one whacked-out writer who seems bitter toward agents. (I am not, had good ones back when they were normal.)
Writers, don’t you think it’s about time to start doing background checks on the people and the organizations you are letting have all your money without question??? After all, this is 2011 and such checks are easy to do. You might be stunned on some agents and agencies on what you will find. One agent still working was actually caught and tossed in jail for a period of time for taking clients money? Criminal charges. Yup, and that agent is still working and being quoted and taking on new clients. That’s how powerful this myth on agents is.
Some agents are so bad they have been blacklisted by publishers, yet writers constantly go to them. Yup, that’s who you want selling your book…someone who can’t even get into many of the major publishers.
Writers give a stranger all your money, and all the paperwork with that money, and don’t even bother to do a background check on them or their business. It is about time this part of publishing vanishes away.
And I have heard perfectly sane professional writers with agents say to me, “But I trust my agent.” My response is now…”Don’t come complaining to me when you discover they have been ripping you off.”
And for those of you who have never had a traditional publishing contract, you give this money power to the agent in your contract with your publisher. Publisher would be happy to send it all to you and then you can pay your employee or the publisher in the contract will be happy to split payments, send paperwork to both and 15% to the agent and all your money to you directly. Either way is fine in the contract as far as publishers. It’s only the agents who want all the money and all the paperwork. Wonder why that is???
Think, people, think.
I love that you don’t mince words and just tell it like it is. I’ve known several people who looked into hiring agents for their newly written books. Your article offers a great testament to helping authors realize this role can and should be taken on themselves.
I know so many writers who’ve put their books out there themselves that haven’t sold worth crap. They’ve done a good job on editing/covers/etc, but they aren’t selling enough to even recoup the cost of publishing them.
So maybe this works for authors who already have an established reader base, but I’m not so sure about authors who are just starting out. If that author can get a big name publisher behind them that gives them credibility (something established authors already have), maybe even a marketing push. It puts them ahead of all the self published stuff out there.
Also, I’ve tried selling my stuff without an agent. Unless you have a in with the publisher (like a fellow author who will get you a specific name/email address and vouch for you), your stuff goes to a slush pile and never comes out again. That’s different for published authors because you already have a track record.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
Amber, well you are deep in the myths and even worse, the produce model for books. What is “selling worth crap” that you mention. I know that I celebrate when a novel sells twenty or thirty copies in a month on Kindle, which means more than likely it’s selling twice that around the world. Most idiots out there think that’s bad. Just do the math. Which I have done here numbers of times.
And why are there costs in indie publishing??? I spend $8-15 for a cover, nothing for anything else, and have the book up worldwide selling. When I put the book into paper, I spend $39.00 plus proof costs and shipping, usually around $55.00 to get the book selling. So around $70.00. Sell the book at $4.99, get $3.50, takes twenty sales to get the money back.
Of course, if the writers are selling their books at 99 cents, which is another myth, they will make no money. Duh.
And you don’t need an “in with a publisher” to sell something to New York. You simply mail them what is called a submissions package (sample chapters, proposal, cover letter with bio, and an SASE.) If they don’t like it, they will return it or do nothing. If they like it, they will ask for the entire book. No “in” needed. Not sure where you heard that, but wow is that wrong.
And I used to send pen name books in all the time with no bio because the pen name had no bio, and I didn’t want the editor to know it was me (because of Star Trek and the like). Sold books and such all the time that way. Why? Duh, my storytelling is better than your storytelling. Why? I’ve been practicing longer than you have.
It always comes down to the storytelling. And it’s about time writers understand that. There are no tricks, no secrets. If you write a good story, and then have the courage to put it out there for readers or editors to buy, it will sell. Might take time, but it will sell.
I’ve made a lot of career decisions. The best one I ever made was to fire my (well-known, high-powered) agent. My career improved from that day forward.
What a refreshing viewpoint. And you’re right on about agent myths. My GENERAL conclusions about them:
1. Colossal waster of writers’ time.
2. Lacking basic sales and marketing skills.
3. Notoriously weak and arrogant in communicating with their owns customers (writers).
They write pithy blogs and include wonderful writing advice on their websites. But, in the real world, when you need to pitch ideas on the phone or belly-to-belly, I often wonder how in the world these people make a living, given their blatant lack of business accuman.
Technology puts writers (finally) in control of their own publishing destinies. More importantly, it also shifts the responsibility for marketing directly on the writer, rather an relying on some vague and usually nonexistent marketing plan by agents and publishers.
I’ve said it many times and I’ll say it again: I am not DWS. My mother has trouble remembering my name and I currently have 3 publishing contracts for novel-length works with 3 different houses and **I do not have an agent.**
I have personally met authors who have landed big contracts with big houses without ever having an agent. Some even fired their agents and got contracts with houses that their agents said rejected them.
I get so pissed off when I see certain agents on Twitter spreading the myth around that they are vital to everyone’s career and NO ONE EVER should sign a contract without their tender loving care. Then, their 4000 followers all retweet the same ol’ message without even thinking about what they are saying. Hell, I’d had these folks ask me how I got an agent to negotiate my contracts without me giving them a royalty. Um, it’s not a requirement to have one.
*insert heavy sigh*
How long have I been reading your blog? And how long has it taken me to really listen? I’ve been indie publishing for 9 months, so that’s a start, but it was this last book my agent had . . . I only sent it to him because he was my agent and he is a good guy (he really is), but after the first editor rejected it, I listened to my heart and took it back. Not going to do this anymore. I put it up myself yesterday.
Some great comments, and far more positive than I expected considering this topic. (grin) Thanks everyone for that.
Let me reply to some of the posts.
Sarah, great job listening to your heart. And congrats on getting it out for readers to find. Let it grow now. Think of any book put up indie publishing as planting a small tree. Can’t expect to get timber out of it, but it will grow and grow and grow over the years.
Krista… LOL… and congrats and thanks! Thanks for having the courage to put out front that you sold books without an agent. So many writers are afraid to say that because it goes so much against this myth. Thanks.
Tom, you are right about agents lacking basic marketing and sales skills. Most of them are former editors who just have no training at all in that area, and don’t feel they need to learn. And I agree that having an agent is a time waste for a writer. It costs more time to have an agent than it doesn’t, even though a belief (myth) is that agents can save you time. Nope, just the opposite, actually. Just like the growing myth that if you sell to traditional publishing you will have more time to write than if you indie publish. One newly-minted millionaire indie writer started this myth without knowing what she speaks. All long-term pros just laughed at that one.
As for agents being weak in communicating. Some, yes, some no. All three of my agents were spot on top with me in this area, returning calls instantly. (But of all the things I am accused of, more than likely that was because of who I am, not how much money I made them. (grin))
Margaret…thanks for saying that.
The major thing that has changed since you posted the various “agent” topics here, of course, is that a number of agents have now established e-publishing divisions, or have set themselves up as e-publishers of their own clients, or have become commission-based facilitators (cough) of their clients’ electronic self-publishing, etc. In a nutshell, a numbers of agents (including several agencies whose decision to do this surprised me, since I had previously considered them ethical operations) have blithlely leaped over a big, thick, dark ethical line in the sand and crossed over into conflict-of-interest practices without a backward glance.
But apart from numerous literary agencies becoming e-publishers or (cough) epublishing facilitators, I don’t think that much has inherently changed about the author-agent business model or the erroneous “conventional wisdom” about agents.
Most professional writers and most aspiring writers still think that a writer MUST have a literary agent, and that any writer who does not have on is making a huge and very foolish mistake.
This was an almost universal view when I decided to stop working with agents and started writing, blogging, and speaking at conferences about my decision 4+ years ago. It was still a nearly-universal view, as far as I could see, when you started blogging regularly about agent myths here back in (I think it was?) 2009.
It is still a very common view now, as far as I can tell. It is less unanimous than it was several years ago, or even 18 months ago, which is a Good Thing. But it’s still a view I hear and see proclaimed regularly. All the time. Virtually everywhere that writers communicate. And uttered as an indisputably self-evident truth.
The behavior of agents in recent years (refusing to represent books which then sell without an agent; refusing to represent writers who discover they wind up doing fine–or even BETTER–without an agent; etc.) has certainly helped reduce the formerly almost-universal view that they were necessary for running a successful writing career.
The advent of viable self-publishing and the healthy self-generated careers of many newcomers, as well as the healthily e-revived careers of many experienced writers who were abandoned by their agents (as well as their publishers) has also made a big difference in that formerly pervasive view.
And yet I nonetheless see and hears writers and aspiring writers saying ALL THE TIME that a writer MUST have an agent, and any writers who does not have one is making a huge and very foolish mistake. Despite what is by now a large, very visible, and steadily growing body of evidence to the contrary. (For example, the number of longtime pros I know who are now working without an agent, who once would never have considered this, has grown considerably in the past two years. Mostly because their last agents wouldn’t send out their stuff (or even answer their calls) anymore, and the subsequent agents whom they queried couldn’t even be bothered to respond.)
And all of the problems of the business model which were discussed here are as relevant as ever. Fortunately, the viable alternatives to working with an agent are evolving these days even faster than the problems in the agent-author business model are evolving… but the fact that so many agents can get away with the newfound behavior they’re enacting (such as the stunningly unethical practice of acting as both “agent” and “publisher” in their relationships with their clients) is clear evidence that many, many writers are still not using their heads well when confronting the agent-author business model. And the fact that so MANY writers and aspiring writers still believe that a literary agent is =absolutely necessary= to a writing career tells me that the subject still needs to be aired–loudly and often.
Dean – I think the reason authors aren’t speaking up is because (in my experience) I have been constantly told to watch my tone and what I say because I might offend potential future agents.
If an agent is that thinned-skinned, I am definitely the wrong client for them.
It’s funny because the people giving me the friendly warnings are all unpublished writers who are either trying to get agents or just landed one.
BTW, I agree at this time with the advice to wait a couple of years before looking for an agent. As per my previous post–agencies that I used to think of as reputable have been getting into e-publishing this year, despite the obvious conflict-of-interest and ethical quagmire inherent in being a client’s agent =and also= his publisher.
Yes, agencies I also used to think of as “where ethics go to die” have been doing this, too, of course.
But the gobsmacker this year has been seeing several agencies which I would have described as reputable or ethical businesses, to my knowledge… suddenly cheerfully announce they were becoming publishers =as well as= agents–and shocked, SHOCKED! that anyone would question their ethics on this basis. (And then, moreover, also seeing them enter into e-publishing with stunning incompetence. That is, being a competent agent, we have already seen multiple times this year, doesn’t mean you won’t quickly prove to be an embarrassingly inept publisher.)
Unless you are 100% comfortable with self-evidently unethical practices and a clear conflict-of-interest being exercised… I’d definitely agree with waiting a couple of years to look for an agent simply because you’ve got no idea (nor do I, nor does Dean, nor does anyone else!) which agencies are going to suddenly announce in the next year or two that they, too, are becoming e-publishers =as well as= agents. There’s no point in signing with an agency that seems ethical and reputable only to discover 3 months later, oops, THEY’re doing it, TOO, and so you’ve got to leave already. And you certainly don’t want to make that discovery three AFTER you’ve signed a contract for which they’re agent-of-record, which means that the deal in question will be tied to that agency for the life of the license (which, with e-rights being the way they are at the moment, could turn out to be for the rest of your life).
I also think that a number of agencies will fold in the next couple of years. This isn’t a shocking prediction, since we’ve already seen a number of agencies fold and agents leave the biz in the -past- two years. The industry is still in turmoil and changing rapidly, and so I think that phenomenon (agents and agencies disappearing) will persist–and may even accelerate for a while.
Laura,
I agree. I consider the agent as publisher as so unethical as to be beyond my belief. And illegal as well. Agents have no rules, no license, nothing, but they are bound by agency law and crossing over goes against most of that agency law. It’s just going to take a few writers (already happening) to sue, and a few criminal investigations (already launched in a number of states including California) to stop this. If this unethical and illegal practice doesn’t get stopped and writers keep falling for it, then I will rant about it a lot. But at the moment I am waiting for a few cases to hit the public, and with luck, that should stop this stupidity cold.
Agents as publishers. How in the world can any sane person, any sane person, think that an agent can represent a client in a clear manner with another publisher when the agent will make more money if they simply publish the writer themselves?
This just shows how really, really, really warped writer’s thinking has become on business.
And, of course, Joe Konrath pushes this silliness because of his friendship with an agent doing this. But does not do it himself for some reason. This is the main area Joe and I do not agree. And on pricing, of course. I think he devalues his work far, far too much. But he is the one who knows the value of his own work, not me. I like his writing. I wish he would value it more is my only disagreement with him on that topic. But wow do I think he is hurting writers as a class with his silliness on agent as publisher.
Just as any Richard Curtis client how little they have made on having their agent publish their work. They will all say almost nothing. I wonder why?
“What is “selling worth crap” that you mention.”
5 to 10 copies a month. One of my friends spent 1,300 to get her book going. She’s made under 700.
“And why are there costs in indie publishing???”
Well, I’m planning to hire an artist to do my cover for 1k. A copy editor is about another 1k. I’ll have to hire someone to do layout, buy the ISBN, and produce a book trailer myself (~500). Then there’s the marketing that goes into selling a book. ARCs to send out for reviews, etc. I figure around 5k total.
“And you don’t need an “in with a publisher” to sell something to New York.”
That has not been my experience. In the past two years, I sent two MS out to publishers with a SASE for the return of the MS. Neither ever came back, which leads me to believe that no one opened them. Also, I’ve been told by editors that they don’t read slush. Maybe they say that to keep the slush from coming their way?
Wow, Amber, you really, really, really need to rethink what you are doing. Why would you do all that? Have you ever heard of the twenty or more sites with royalty-free artwork? Or trading with friends for proofing. And a book trailer??? You are kidding, right? And marketing. Wow, you really need to get off the Kindle boards and understand that what sells is more writing, not some silly promotions that don’t even work for traditional publishers most of the time.
Before you go defending a system you know nothing about, you might want to step back and do some reading. There is no reason at all to spend that type of money on a new first novel. Kris and I spend a total of about $60 or so per novel, some less. Not thousand. Wow, that’s just silly. No wonder you think it won’t work. It would take you decent sales three or four years just to break even.
Sorry, clearly you are buried in new indie publishing myths I don’t even know anything about. I teach a workshop twice a year and we teach writers how to do what I suggest.
Can you imagine WMG Publishing spending $5,000 per book. We have 204 books up now under a bunch of names and in a bunch of genres. Holy crap, 204 books times 5 grand = $1,020,0000.00 That’s MILLION. Yeah, right, all of us are going to do that? Snort. Sorry Amber, you are lost in some other land I do not know about or understand.
If you sent entire manuscripts to publishers, no chance were they going to read them or return them. You have to send submission packages, just as agents do. Sample chapters, a short proposal, a cover letter and author bio, and an SASE. Send it out to five publishers at a time and keep it at five. You will hear back from two or three within a few months, another one a year later, two you will never hear from. But every six months make sure you have the novel at five places.
I, of course, have explained this a dozen times. Sigh…
I don’t even go on the Kindle boards and I stay away from other indie writer groups just because promotion/marketing is such an obsession in those places. When they’re not talking about how to push their book, they’re pushing their book. To other writers. It drives me nuts. And in the dead spaces of the conversation, they crow about their numbers. It’s enough to make anyone depressed. Sometimes I feel my faith in myself getting a little shaky, but I try to keep my head down and just write. Speaking of which, I’d better get back to work.
Oh, and p.s. Amber, those are pretty good numbers. If you’d done your own covers and traded proofing with a friend (like I did ), you’d be making some nice money, especially when you get more books up.
Tori, I was thinking the same thing. Those are pretty nice numbers and more than likely just off Kindle, which is only a fraction of all the numbers. Yeah, a writer can make a really nice living with those numbers and writing regularly. (As long as they don’t go spending $5,000 per book to get a book published. Wow, does that smell of the old vanity press days.)
Actually, interestingly enough, with publishers going toward screwing writers more and more, giving smaller and smaller advances, and agents taking everything they can get and not reporting to writers some of the money, the entire traditional publishing is looking more and more like the old vanity press days. Scary, but if this goes on (the trends continue) that’s what it will be.
Writers just have to realize who is in charge. It’s not an agent or an editor or a publisher. They are in charge.
I am not confident enough in my writing to go without someone helping me with editing for my self-published stuff. For an upcoming novella, which I need help ensuring that an American audience will understand it, I’m only spending $375 for *2* editors.
Also, whatever you do, don’t get a book trailer. What a waste of money.
I hate doing covers; they give me stress migraines. I get people to help me, but I don’t spend $1000. Not even close.
Further, ARCs to send out? Just get book bloggers who take ebooks for review. That’s free.
I’m with Dean. Get off Kindleboards. Zoe Winters has a great book about epublishing. Go buy it. Read it. Realize it isn’t going to cost you $5000.
To back up what Laura said above, I recently got involved in a little argument on a fairly large indie writers forum. One writer, who had made about $140,000 in the span of a year from sales of her book, had publishers approaching her wanting to enter into a deal to publish her book. She went on the forum to ask advice. No kidding, one of the first responses, from another very successful indie writer, was “You’re going to need legal advice. Do you have an agent?” I about threw up in my mouth. Legal Advice? From an English Major who isn’t qualified or legally allowed to give it??? And then it got worse when several others responded that the woman in question needed to get an agent because, well, she needed to.
I spoke up, saying the opposite: screw the agents, get an IP lawyer.
Oh my, the dismissal of the concept! The accusations of sexism because I responded strongly to one of those dismissals when the dismissing person happened to be a woman! The continuance of the myths among people who, I thought, knew better was astounding.
Of course, this same bunch contains a bunch of people who squeal ecstatically when agents come knocking, and congratulate the hell out of each other when one of them sign with an agent. As though somehow that’s some grand event to celebrate. I can’t understand it, considering signing with an agent is at best meaningless (since they aren’t the ones who pay writers) and at most counterproductive.
Just goes to show how widespread the agent worship is, even among indie writers.
You’d think indies, more than any others, would be immune to it. Apparently not.
Amber, by splitting the cost and organizing the download process with a couple of friends, you can get over 200 excellent images for about $1 apiece from Shutterstock.com with a one-month subscription plan. If you only want, say, 3-5-8 images, you can get everything you need at Dreamtime (which has a lot of the same stock) for under $100. Those are just a couple of examples of how affordable high-quality cover images are.
I love the fact the my publishers, which have the fiscal resources of vast umbrella corporations to draw on, pay top cover artists to do the covers of the books I write for them. But I have only my own resources to draw on for my self-publishing, so I use affordable images for my e-venture.
Since I wanted to keep my costs low (being a full-time professional novelist for over 20 years ensures that I am careful with money, since this is a fiscally unstable profession), I learned to design my own covers. I manipulate the images in Photoshop Elements (which I purchased for my e-venture) and then I finish the layout and lettering in MS Powerpoint (which came bundled with my MS Office package years ago).
Using a professional to create covers is another option, of course, and there are some terrific ones out there who charge $150 or less per cover. (Kim Killion of HotDamn designs immediately comes to mind as someone I’d recommend, for example.)
Like cover images, ISBNs are another expense you can substantially reduce if you team up with others to purchase them in bulk from Bowker. (The pricing is such that buying 10 ISBNs costs $25 apiece, but buying 1,000 costs $1 apiece.)
I convert my files to ePub and Mobi format myself with Legend Maker software, which I bought for my e-venture after realizing how much money I’d save by doing this myself, as well as how well I could ensure quality control of the finished ebook by doing the conversions myself.
Unless they’re VERY inexpensive, I think ARCs are an unwise outlay for an unknown self-published writer; and I think book trailers are an unwise expense for any writer who cannot very, very easily kiss that money goodbye.
Copy editing is important, but I wouldn’t spend $1K to copy edit my first ebook. I’d work out a much more economical system (a cheaper copy edit, a swap of favors, etc.) for my early ebooks, wait to see if they’re EARNING at least $1K apiece, and only then consider -spending- $1K to produce them. Similarly, before spending $5K to produce a self-pub a book, I’d start by seeing if I could EARn $5K with a self-published book. If I didn’t know for a fact that I could recoup that large an expense on one title within a few months–or a year at most–then I wouldn’t spend it. I’d find another way to produce an equally professional book for much, much less money
I won’t release a shabby or unprofessional product in my e-venture. I also won’t waste a penny on the investments I make in it.
With all of my expenditures for 15-20 titles entered into the “loss” column, I went into overall profit on my e-venture in 3-4 months with the first 5 titles, i.e. 1/3-1/4 of my eventual overall list of backlist e-releases. On that basis, I recently decided to spend some money on interior art for some upcoming e-books–which I am comfortable doing because the money for this interior art (a value-added feature which may not generate a single extra sale, for all I know) is coming strictly out of PROFIT in my e-venture.
And I intend that any further expenses on my e-venture (of which there will probably be relatively few for the next few years, since I used my money well up front and therefore have a good supply of images, software, and ISBNs) will also come only out of profit.
My point is not “do exactly what I do,” but rather that cheap is bad, thrift is good, and extravagance is a reckless gamble in this profession. Unless someone is a high profile writer with a huge audience whose purchases will unquestionably ensure that you earn back yourself-pubbing expenses within a compact timeframe, $5K per title strikes me as risky outlay rather than as a smart investment.
Meanwhile, your comments about slush strike me as a very familiar and perpetually erroneous lament. Most published writers got/get acquired the first time via the slushpile. And from that moment on, the complaint we all constantly hear from aspiring writers is, “No one ever reads the slushpile anymore. No one ever buys from the slushpile anyhow. It’s all about who you know.” Etc. I have continually heard the same complaint non-stop ever since autumn 1988, which was 6 months after I was pulled out of slush for my first sale. I have also continually, ever since then, for over 20 years, week in and week out, met (and read about)… writers who just got a first-time contract after being pulled out of the slushpile.
Writers Jim Hines and Megan Crewe each grew so tired of the standard and perpetual “it’s impossible to sell via the slushpile” lament decided to do surveys and gather stats about this. You can find their results on my Writers Resource Page, at this link, under the header Debunking Publishing Myths: http://sff.net/people/laresnick/About%20Writing/Writers%20Resource.htm#PostsPieces
Bottom line: The way to sell a book is still now, as it always has been, to prepare an excellent submission package, send it to publishers/editors whom you have researched and targeted well, then to write another book while you wait for them to wade through the slushpile in search of material they want to buy.
What Laura said. (How many times over the last few years have I said that? (grin)) Thanks again, Laura.
Also, what is wonderful about indie publishing is that the slush pile is moving online, away from agents. This is a trend that I think will only pick up. In fact, if I was back editing for a major house, I would find my line’s books either through indie publishing or writer’s conferences. But if an author had the courage to send me a submission package, I would most certainly look at it. But I would be more impressed at the authors who had the courage of their own work to get their work out for readers to find. And sometimes I would be able to save money by going with a finished product. I would know the editing and copyediting would be reduced. And cover art and package might be workable as well if the author is good.
I know numbers of writers who got in this way already and it’s picking up steam. Indie publishing is the slush pile, folks. Welcome to the new world.
And if you don’t like the fact that you will have to learn how to do books yourself and be a business person in the new world of publishing, too damn bad. You’ll just get left behind. (And then maybe you could write a bestselling series about the authors who were left behind and the carnage in the bar… sorry, playing off a very bad play on words…sorry…(grin))
Michael wrote: “I spoke up, saying the opposite: screw the agents, get an IP lawyer.”
The next time you ahve occasion to say that to someone, please give them this link to the Directory of Literary Lawyers on my Writers Resource Page. All of the attorneys listed there can be considered as personal referrals from me:
http://sff.net/people/laresnick/About%20Writing/Writers%20Resource.htm#Lawyers
Dean –
At the risk of sounding like the young punk on the block (which, admittedly, I am), I gotta say:
At this point, regardless of who it comes from, I’ve found myself regarding ANY traditional publishing contract as a vanity con unless the deal either 1) is a straight license deal for a limited print run/time period or 2) comes with an advance with less that 4 zeroes with a large number in front of it (in addition to being an otherwise decent contract with a tight grant of rights and good OOP clause).
I’ve got to admit, Worldcon did a lot to push me this direction. I talked to a fair few of youngish writers who either accepted draconian terms or a very teeny check so that they’d have “legitimacy.” I spent a lot of time keeping my lips glued shut, as you might imagine.
On the occasions I was asked about my business model by youngish writers, I often got sheepish eyes in return (from the authors who didn’t immediately put me into the “self-published loser” column), and then evasions when I asked about the terms they got from [insert name of large publishing house here].
However, there was an interesting break. Several of the pros from your generation (you, Kris, RJ Sawyer, David Brin, I could go on [feel free to redact these if you don't want names named]) were supportive and enthusiastic upon seeing my sample copies, and asked intelligent questions about my business model and offered relevant tips from the things they’ve been learning from bringing their backlist out.
The Worldcon experience brought me nose-to-[redacted] with how much of the current publishing climate, for writers, is *about* vanity, and nothing else. And how much a lot of writers my age and younger are paying for that vanity.
-Dan
Thanks, Dan. Interesting that I heard nothing on the “self-published” side of things being wrong. In fact, everyone I talked to was excited about doing it or working to get started. Of course, as you said, I hung around with older professionals for the most part, those with backlists and clear knowledge of publishing and the business.
Younger writers (you excluded on this) have myths and beliefs that drive them. No knowledge. And they defend the beliefs to the point of armed conflict it seems, even though the beliefs are not based in any grounding of reality. Older professionals, who have had publishers mess everything up far more times than we can all count, understand this new reality and taking back control and having regular checks come in.
There is nothing like suddenly seeing stories, your babies that have been dead for years and years, suddenly come back to life and start earning you money regularly every month. That turns any old pro into a giddy kid again. And there is no word, none about the old “vanity press” thinking. Only how do I cash in?
In fact, I went to Worldcon expecting lots of negative and ran into none from writers. Lots from agents and publishers and editors. But none from writers. Not a bit. Just excitement among the writers. Why? Because we are taking back the control that creeped out of our grasp over the last twenty years. And old pros know that and see that.
The younger pros who don’t understand this will just vanish in time. Normal as well.
Dean,
I’m coming off dead computer hell, so my brain is pretty fuzzy right now. So I haven’t even tried to think through the math on the following. But I wonder if there’s something there.
You have often decried the produce model, because you believe a good book grows legs over time, and a good author’s works over time help to sell each other. I understand that part. You believe the long term money is in the long tail, not the initial hump.
And I also understand the produce model thinking: the traditional publishers believe that freshness and churn are necessary to keep bringing readers back looking for the fresh new stuff. Their business model is built on the initial hump.
But then I thought: wait a minute, they want to have their cake and eat it too! Their business model is built on the initial hump, but their deals generally try to grab all of the long tail, too. They don’t want your book on the shelf a month after release; but gosh darn it, if some reader somewhere somehow finds a way to buy a copy, they want that money!
So that leads me to wonder if a good negotiator might try to work a deal: the traditional publisher gets the initial hump, the author gets the long tail, ESPECIALLY the ebook long tail. Structure it so they have an interest in promoting the book, and maybe a diminishing share of the ebook over time — cutting off completely at some reasonable point after the release.
I know, the publisher doesn’t want a deal like that; but heck, they want EVERYTHING, that doesn’t mean we have to give it to them. I almost feel like there’s a win-win potential there.
Or I could be tired from fighting broken hardware all week…
I’m not sure I care about this deal regardless. You’ve pretty much convinced me to concentrate on selling short fiction to markets where I can (two so far, thanks to following your advice), self-publishing what I can’t sell to markets (and when rights revert), and build the long tail on my own.
Martin, what you are talking about is the Out of Print or Reversion clause in a contract, when the publisher turns back the rights to the book they have purchased and the book goes out of print as far as they are concerned. This is THE MOST IMPORTANT Clause in the contract next to grant of rights. If you have a crappy reversion clause, meaning you will never get it back until you take your copyright back in 35 years, (copyright law, go learn it) then you have to figure how much you could have made in 35 years doing it yourself (with lots of assumptions of course). And that is your minimum advance you should take. (Your projected indie income for that book per year times 35 years.)
I never sign a contract these days without an iron clad reversion clause. In fact, the one I like the best is that after three years, no matter the advance, if I am not getting $500 per six months in a check, I get the book back. The publisher has the option to continue to pay me the grand per year to keep the rights (plus whatever it is earning, of course), but if they decide that holding onto my rights is not worth $500 minimum payment even if the book isn’t earning out, then the contract says they must revert the rights to me and I put the book up myself.
A win/win situation. If the book is earning, I get at least $500 and the publisher keeps making money. If the book is not earning, this forces them to revert in three years.
Again, in this new world, the reversion clause is the most important clause there is. Of all our older books that we wanted back, (and owned the rights to, unlike the Trek novels) Kris and I only missed on one. Just one out of almost a hundred. Fantasy Life from Pocket Books. And why Pocket wants to keep that book is beyond me, but for some reason they do. They have done a crap job on the e-book, basically putting up a pdf file, and the trade POD is a photo copy of the paperback and selling for almost $30. But they want to keep it even though there are no sales. The contract reversion clause is bad for us, so nothing we can do. Nothing.
If you can’t get a good reversion clause that gets you your rights back, do not sigh with traditional publishers these days. Trust me on that. For any amount of money.
Amber, please listen to the very good advice above about formatting and other costs for your books. The cover art for my short stories are free or under $5 a cover and I do the work, with no promo because I’d rather spend the time writing the next story.
As Krista put it, readers don’t know me or my name: they have the cover to catch their eye, the blurb to see if they’ll read the sample, and the sample to see if they’ll buy the book. Only one of these things has to cost money. The rest is sweat and practice, and you can’t buy that.
Have a low profit-point threshhold on the publishing side (it will be rather more on the writer side). Keep your overhead costs low, as that is one of your key advantages in successful indie publishing. Pay for necessities, obviously, but bootstrap whenever possible and focus on making a profit ASAP, and keep writing.
Leave promo for later. Get profitable until and unless you get lucky.
Dean,
Just to add some proof to what Dean is saying. I was turned down by a hundred agents in the US and UK over a seven year period.
Then I met an editor from Harper Collins at a public crime writing event. She asked to see my latest novel. I sent it. Within three months I had a three book deal.
The book they bought was considered un-sellable by agents.
The book they bought was un-putdownable, said Harper Collins.
When I told a big agent what happened, to let them know what they missed (I enjoyed that) they wanted to be part of the action, of course, but told me too many lies to inspire confidence.
So here’s to you Dean. I raise my glass to the man who tells the truth.
If you want to check out that I’m telling the truth have a look at this post:
http://lpobryan.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/from-a-to-p-%E2%80%93-post-2-b/
Good luck to all on your road.
It rises for a while, then the mountains come in view. When you get to the first pass tell me what you see. I saw a shallow valley and the higher peaks ahead, just visible now through the mist.
Laurence, thanks for speaking up. And adding yet another story into the mass of stories about how agents screwed up or blocked sales. And congrats on going the distance on your own. Well done. And congrats on the sale.
Um… not to jump on Amber, but I’m not a long established writer. I’m brand new!
Sometimes for a new author it can be tough to read the advice from those “long established authors” because you think “but I’m brand new, never in a million, bajillion years will that work for me because…” we tell ourselves it’s a different time, it’s harder now, it’s a different genre, we don’t have a following, etc. The same thing about the agent percentage, it doesn’t seem too bad when you aren’t making ANY money and you rationalize with an agent you’ll make SOME money which is better than none.
However, I took Dean’s advice and felt nervous/silly, but it worked. I negotiated a 3 book deal with my cover artist with the first book being about 40% of the second book price, which is $50 off her normal price and the price for book 3. All three for less than $1,000. I paid a little more than a thrifty ebook price because she is also laying out the cover for my POD book. I have broken down my costs on my blog for the book that I just released and came up to $400 including the books I bought on writing.
I decided in January to write a book, started writing the end of March and by mid September released said book. And I’ve sold it to 20 people, and had 100 people download it for free (it’s a lot harder to give away a free book than you think). Even if I only sell 20 copies a month, my book will earn out in less than 2 years.
So, it can be done for a fraction of the costs you outlined. I did format my book myself with Jutoh (A piece of $40 software) and I edited myself by printing the book out twice through Staples for $20 a pop. I hope for the next book to outsource at least one editing round.
I hope that helps other new authors. These “long established writers” are still VERY hip and all we have to do is not psyche ourselves out.
Great job, Elizabeth, but still high for covers, unless that person is doing cover layout as well and it’s as good as New York. We had a great layout person do the Grayson novels, and we are paying a wonderful artist to do the Fey covers, but the rest are done with iStockPhoto or Dreamstime or one of those for art and layout basic with inDesign.
Again, no reason to spend more than $50.00 to $100.00 for everything, including having your book in print form through CreateSpace. Just no reason.
Get in cheap, get to profit quickly. Just good business. Stop thinking produce model, folks. You can fix it or change it later.
Your blog has information I haven’t found anywhere else. Thanks. I published my children’s novel with iUniverse. If it was just payment for the formatting, cover, etc. services for a newbie I could live with it but I now realize with the royalties they pay I will never make back what I paid. 10% of net is about 60 cents a book.
Children’s novels are still predominantly print at this time so I will need to have that in addition to an e-book version. I am researching options for the sequel.
Do you have an opinion as to the appropriate length of time between
sequels?
ifreer, sorry that you used iUniverse. One of the worst ways to go and most expensive.
As for time between sequels, in this modern world, none. Better to have as many up as soon as possible. Timing sequels is old produce thinking of limited shelf space. No need for that now. Sooner you have it up, the more money you make.
Hi Dean,
That’s for your info about reversion of rights and using the 3 year time line combined with royalty payments. I’ve been thinking about this issue for the past several years, and that’s the best arrangement I’ve seen. “Widely availiable for sale” just won’t cut it anymore.
I started with the idea that overseas foreign rights agents actively shopped the books we’ve done, looking for a good home for them. But what I’ve discovered is that nearly all of them just sit there until a foreign publisher comes to them with an interest in the book. Then they arrange the contract and negotiate the terms. And that’s it. For 15 or 20%, they won’t budge. Of nearly 15 foreign editions, I’ve only had one that resulted because a rights agent actually sent the book around to local publishers.
Up until now, foreign publishers have been checking best seller lists and mainstream (or their own niche) publishers to find works to translate, but I suspect the more with it publishers will be looking through the independents on Amazon.
I just looked up “Fantasy Life” on Amazon, and it’s ranking is #4,524,656! I’m sure the book must be much, much better than that (publisher is pricing it too high) but I’ve never seen a ranking that low before. You would think a warm six pack of Rainer would be enough to induce someone to release the rights to a book that was selling so badly. My second thought was, “well wait for the bankrupcy filling to get the rights back.” As I think about it though, and looked at the pricing of their other books, I almost wonder if someone there has it in for you. (Maybe they aren’t a fan of your blogs?
)I didn’t notice any of their other books their were priced so far above the norm.