Folks, Kris’s new business blog is up and titled “R*E*S*P*E*C*T.” A must read not only for what Kris is saying about respect from traditional editors, but for the list that Lee Allred puts together and she posts on the differences between traditional publishing and indie publishing.
Kris and I are in the middle of dealing with a nasty estate, she couldn’t travel this week to a conference in Florida because of these problems, and I am teaching this week. And yet with all that, she still had to deal with what rude traditional editors do to writers.
Lee did not add that aspect to the negatives of traditional publishers.
Kris is fed up. I’m fed up when it happens to her and when it happens to me.
I have published over 100 books with traditional publishers. So has Kris. We have both been award-winning editors and publishers. You may not like something we say, you may disagree, but after thirty plus years we deserve the respect of our knowledge.
I love having discussions, and I am not always right, and I love to keep learning. But to my face or in business dealings, treat me with respect of my years. I can demand that much.
And so can my wife.
Indie publishing goes directly to the fans, to the readers, and that is a wonderful new aspect of this world. That aspect alone is turning me more and more to indie publishing.
Read Kris’s blog, read Lee’s list.
I think it also comes down to behaving like a professional. Whether an editor agrees with her writer or not; whether an editor feels that her writer understands business or not; there are professional ways to deal with her writer. It’s not hard to disagree diplomatically. Likewise, an editor ought to at least check her writers’ bios & websites, especially if the editor/writer relationship is brand new. Even a cursory glance at Kris’ website/bio would make it clear she is a seasoned professional, not a debut novelist with no understanding of publishing at all.
What’s really unfortunate is that these editors have apparently never been taught by their employers that writers are BUSINESS ASSOCIATES, and should be treated as such, with professional courtesy &, yes, respect. It’s also a shame that such behavior is driving even more business away from traditional publishers & THEY refuse to see it.
Recently I had a concern about the bonds in my 401K portfolio (I don’t know a lot about finances, but there are issues in the news lately that make me worry). When I contacted my 401K account exec, I sat on her email response for a couple of days before sending it to my husband with the question, “Am I over-reacting, or did she just tell me “don’t worry your pretty little head over that, the bond fund manager knows what he’s doing”?”
A couple of days after that I received a contact from the other account exec, & I expressed my dissatisfaction with the tone & content of the initial response (I was still trying to work the ire out of my system before going back to the initial account exec). Two days later, he was in my office with a full prospectus, bio & success rate info on the bond fund manager in question, & detailed explanations of what was going on. He wasn’t condescending but made a point of figuring out just exactly my expertise level was & explaining in terms I could understand. He gave me links to more information about the various funds in my 401K & his direct number.
I appreciated this, because while one account exec treated me like some clueless hysterical pain in the the ass determined to upset her day, the other one treated me with professional courtesy & a valued client, despite the fact that I am only one person out of the thousands they must deal with, with a very small, drop in the bucket, account. That is the way business should be conducted ACROSS THE BOARD.
Thanks for pointing this out, Dean. It’s a great post by Kris and I love Lee’s summary–it pretty much says it all. Also want to say thank you to both you and Kris for continuing to post, despite the estate issue. Hang in there!
Hey, Dean:
I wrote a reply on Kris’s blog, but got no “Awaiting Moderation” notice after clicking “Submit” (this is the second time this has happened to me on Kris’s blog, and the first time, my comment didn’t post), so I’m cross-posting here in the interest of not wasting 3 minutes of writing output!
*************************
I don’t mean to play “Can you top this?”, but you should try working in the scriptwriting business.
You refer to your two editors in question as “children” with “less than 10 years” experience. In the scriptwriting biz, we would have a different name for them:
“Veterans”.
Try having a meeting with a “development executive” fresh out of college (inevitably an Ivy League school – is this kind of job that people are spending $500K on their higher education for – really?) who not only try to explain the business to you, BUT HOW TO WRITE AS WELL.
Trust me, to them…
…R*E*S*P*E*C*T is nothing more than a licensing problem.
Todd
“THE TELLING OF MY MARCHING BAND STORY”
http://www.toddtrumpet.com
You may not like something we say, you may disagree, but after thirty plus years we deserve the respect of our knowledge.
QFT.
Sounds like my current situation.
I’ve been in this temp position for a year now, so I have great knowledge as to the system I have to use to do my job.
So when a woman used another aspect of the system left her position, did the company turn to me, since I already had the knowledge?
Of course not.
And I’ve worked hard, just like you, Dean, writing your 100(!!!!) novels. I’ve already let my boss know that if she can’t find a perm position for me here, I’ll be looking for something elsewhere in the company.
This is just like Rodney Dangerfield – no respect.
This is the entertainment industry at large in so many ways its not funny. I totally see what you are saying Dean, and it is not only ridiculous, its down right foolishness. These people have created a scenario in which they made themselves royalty within the kingdom of publishing, the monarchs. The problem is, the commoners don’t need them anymore. They were always perched upon a teetering throne, and now its toppling, yet they still can’t bring themselves to “act right.”
I was talking to my wife just yesterday about how I wish musicians and singers could do what we in publishing are doing, since they get paid so little for their work and must tour to make money. My wife commented that they are at the bottom of the food chain. I find it absolutely flabbergasting that those that PROVIDE THE PRODUCT THAT IS SOLD are not only at the bottom of the food chain, but are often treated with so little respect. Is it general corporate society thinking that “artists” are cloud-headed and stupid, or is there something I’m missing here?
Wow. If experienced, award winning authors like Kris are treated like something on the bottom of a shoe by editors, who should know better, this is one more reason why I’m glad a publishing contract was never offered to me.
I was depressed for a long time because I couldn’t get a contract and this is what I was missing out on? Pshaw!
What is amazing about all this is that I have had all wonderful short fiction editors. All of them. And I have had a number of book editors who treated me with respect and we worked together wonderfully. John Ordover, who is no longer editing, and Denise Little spring to mind as editors who treat their writers with respect and always did, at least with me and Kris. I must have done thirty books with John and I’ve done a dozen different book projects with Denise over the years. All wonderful working relationships. So I have had some with book editors and all short fiction editors have been wonderful to me over the decades.
But along the way there were editors who sort of forgot I wasn’t a beginning writer. I once had a new editor at Bantam who took over a book project I was on and started treating me like I had no idea about anything. He had been in editing for six months total. So one day I happened to mention that I had been a publisher working with Bantam when this editor was still in grade school and that this editor’s major boss, a person he most likely had never met, was a good friend of mine and we had done that project together back when this editor was in grade school and that I had published ten other novels as a writer with Bantam while this editor was in diapers. The young editor HATED me worse and I got my friend to remove me to another editor and this new baby editor who treated me like dirt was soon gone.
I have zero idea what causes this sort of action, but it seems normal.
Read Jean Cash’s biography of the late Larry Brown. What Katherine talks about in her blog post is exactly what Brown went through with Shannon Ravenel at Algonquin and why he left them and went with another publisher for the last novel he published before he died in 2004.
I edit a small zine and am humbled when writers thank me for providing some feedback when I reject a story. Not that other editors are rude, but writers tell me that very few respond with a personal rejection notice. So I can understand how some editors might be perceived as aloof to new writers, but once an editor/writer relationship is established (or agent/writer relationship) it seems to me that they should interact cordially, even as friends. That’s why I’m in this thing – I just like meeting new writers.
“Is it general corporate society thinking that “artists” are cloud-headed and stupid, or is there something I’m missing here?”
No.
It’s that “artists” ARE cloud-headed and stupid. “Artists”, or at least people who wallow in self-delusion about the importance of their “art” and how sublime it is and how they cannot be bothered to concern themselves with petty mundane details because they are “artists” and therefore exist on a higher, more profound plane than the rest of us, routinely do and say stupid, idiotic, ignorant things. They bring contempt down upon themselves, and deservedly so.
A businessman and a professional, however, is another thing entirely. He may work in what we call the arts, but he does not delude himself. He recognizes that he creates a product for sale in the marketplace, and that he is in fact in business. His product is no different than any other product in the world that is for sale, from a business perspective. And so he learns how things work in the real world, he behaves in a professional manner (not like a spoiled child), and he gives respect and expects it in return.
Unfortunately, the true professionals are, to all appearances, few and far between. We’re treated daily to countless examples of idiot “artists” doing, saying, and lending their support to the most inane things imaginable while patting themselves on the back for their brilliance, and being patted on the back in turn by sycophants. Not so different from politicians, in that sense.
So really, can you blame people who have to work with “artists” for assuming that they are all numbskulls?
That said, there’s no excuse for those people to act unprofessionally themselves, especially when they’re dealing with someone who is without question an adult and a professional. Good on Kris for not taking it.
Thanks as always for the post, Dean. Looking forward to meeting you and Kris in person next March.
I agree completely, Michael. Well said.
Wonderful group here for the Think Like a Publisher workshop. Just wonderful, from all over the country and Canada and Italy. It feels wonderful to be talking about writing again this week.
Very good point Michael. I actually had this very problem with an “artist” whom I had tried to work with to do a cover for my book. (the only expense I dole out for my business) After nearly two months the guy backs out and says he can’t do it because it is taking too much time and that he needed to focus on his real “art”, and not be hindered by trying to create someone else’s vision.
I nearly vomited when I read that. It was the very definition of the cloud-headed “artist” that annoys the CRAP out of me! I’m actually prepared to pay this guy for his work and he can’t be hindered to work on someone else’s vision?
After several encounters like this one, I realized that not many creative folks seem to think the same way I do. Since then, I have spent a lot less time and frustration finding someone to do my covers. I can spot an “artist” very quickly and I waste no time on them. I now have a person doing my covers who is quick and efficient, and does an amazing job. If only we could all function this way. (Naive thought)
Yo, Dean — check your e-mail to see if my latest message got through your draconian spam filter.
Oh, and of course Kris is absolutely correct, per usual.
Got it, teaching a large bunch of wonderful pros. Great fun.
Michael, while I sympathise if you’d had bad experiences, that does not excuse going in with the assumption that the person who is providing your essential product is stupid or failing to know someone’s credentials when you’re dealing with them. Speaking of being a numbskull, not knowing that you are dealing with a Hugo-winning editor and best-selling author closely fits the definition of that word.
Yes, I CAN blame people who have to work with “artists” for assuming that they are all numbskulls. I can blame someone who has had a bad experience with a couple of women for assuming that we’re all idiots. I can blame the same with any form of prejudice.
Anyone who treats someone with Kris’s credentials the way she describes deserves everything they get.
“Speaking of being a numbskull, not knowing that you are dealing with a Hugo-winning editor and best-selling author closely fits the definition of that word…Anyone who treats someone with Kris’s credentials the way she describes deserves everything they get.”
Agreed. That’s what I was trying to say in my paragraph four. Guess that didn’t come through well. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
Completely unrelated but I just broke 1,000 words/per hour today for the first time ever and I think it was some of my best writing yet.
All thanks to your sacred cows of publishing.
This is so much fun.
Not if but when I become a successful author…McDonalds is on me. (grin)
Peace,
Alex Hajicek
Ramon–about the music industry: The amazing changes that have swept publishing and made indie epubbing not only viable but likely the best option for most writers haven’t hit the music biz yet. Sure, MP3s and torrents and all that have changed corporate music, far more than PDFs and Palms did corporate publishing. But I believe a second, much more disruptive wave will hit soon. Same thing for comics and children’s illustrated books. Video games are going through it already, at least mobile games. Photography, too (stock photos, anyway.) The fruits of Moore’s law.
Maybe I’m niave but I think that everyone should be treated with respect. Everyone’s POV is valid, but artists in particular are a special breed that add so much to society, we’re precious and should be treated as such.
This is the kind of thing that has convinced me to indie publish shorter works (my first has just come out) while my agent looks for a legacy publisher for my ya urban fantasy. I like the idea of not having to deal with people who may not have the same vision as me. Also there are so many excellent indie books out there now that anyone who lacks respect for Indie authors is way out of touch.
Tahila, the problem is that shrt fiction editors are the ones that treat writers with respect and agents and book editors are the problem. Not all, as both Kris and I said, but never with short fiction. The days agents are the worst treating all writers like they are stupid. Some are, granted, but you don’t treat Kristine Kathryn Rusch like a beginner and not be insulting.
So you should send out the short fiction and indie publish the novels.
This –
“Indie publishing goes directly to the fans, to the readers, and that is a wonderful new aspect of this world. That aspect alone is turning me more and more to indie publishing.”
- resonates with me. I’ve been trying to decide what to do with a self-pubbed novel that’s received positive reviews: try again for a traditional publisher (I just had one deal fall through), or re-release it myself?
I wasn’t sure what to do until writing this blog post in response to a writer who’s listing the reasons she won’t self-publish: http://kristenjtsetsi.com/2011/11/10/self-publishing-lacks-the-cool-factor-but-hasnt-independence-always-been-cool/
It isn’t about publisher validation, it isn’t about money (for me) – it’s about getting the writing to the readers, as you say.