We have indie publishers, self publishers, specialty-press publishers, small-press publishers, and so on and so on. Are there any differences and does anyone care?
Well, it seems some people care. Those people with far too much time on their hands, in my opinion. But alas, I have been asked questions about the differences now for some time and I figured it was about time to lay out my opinion on the subject.
So here is how I break it down….
(I will not defend this because, honestly, I have too much actual work to do. And I honestly don’t care. But for the sake of future articles, let me be clear how I see each term. Then you all can agree or disagree.)
Self-Publishers.
Writers who are publishing their own work and have not started a press, don’t have a press name, and when they publish a book, it says only their author name as the publisher.
I have zero issue with authors publishing this way as long as they never hope to grow a larger business. This way is for occasional writers wanting to get something into print. Nothing wrong with it at all.
In fact, this article is self-published. So for this blog and other articles on this web site, I am a self-published author.
Indie Publishers
Indie publishers are writers or fans or whatever who have started a press name that publishes either their own work or someone else’s work. Indie publishers run their press like a business. They often don’t even have their own checking account under the business name, although most do.
Again, nothing wrong with that.
Indie presses usually have more than one author name under their press, have a press web site, and act like a business with their writing. In my columns called “Think Like a Publisher” I try to help writers set up their own presses and act like a business.
Specialty Press Publishers
These are publishers who have a focus on one special area or one author. Underwood-Miller Publishing was a specialty press mostly publishing only high-quality signed Jack Vance books.
My original publishing company, Pulphouse Publishing Inc., was a specialty press publisher focusing only on short fiction books and magazines.
Specialty press publishers tend to do very high quality, often limited books focused in their special area. They act completely like a business.
The longest running specialty press in history was Arkham House out of Wisconsin. Started in 1939 and now finally, have seemed to have shut down.
Small Press
Small Press is a term used in the larger world of publishing to define a publisher, either an indie or a specialty publisher, who has gross sales under a certain figure. That figure tends to be around 50 million dollars. Or less than ten titles per year.
Note, many “medium-sized presses” are considered part of traditional publishing. Daw Books, Baen Books, and so on in science fiction are medium-sized presses. After you get above 50 million dollars in sales per year, there is not a lot of difference between you and a traditional publisher.
My first publishing company, Pulphouse Publishing Inc., was considered the 5th largest publisher of science fiction and fantasy and horror for five straight years, yet we never got above small press. We published 252 titles in nine years, however.
Vanity Publishers
Scams. Plain and simple. Vanity presses under new disguises these days tell a writer that they will produce a writer’s book for a set amount of money and then ship the writer thousands of really ugly books for the writer to try to sell or store in their garage.
This kind of press should be avoided by writers at all costs. They have existed in publishing forever and will continue on due to the stupidity of writers with more money than brains.
Traditional or Legacy Publishers
I use the term “traditional publishers.” Some writers like calling all the big publishers “legacy” publishers as a nasty term. Not all major corporations are the same, not all are bad, not all work in the same mold. And there are a ton more than six of them.
So I like “traditional” as a term for major publishers since this new world has given writers choices between being an indie publisher or selling to a traditional publisher. I suggest always trying to do both. Just be smart about it.
Summary
I like (and will continue to use) the term “indie publisher” or “indie writer” to talk about writers striking out on their own into the publishing world and starting their own presses. I consider it a term of respect for writers I admire.
WMG Publishing Inc. (which I am putting most of my stories through and my backlist) is a small press publisher I helped start. It now has four employees (not counting me) and a number of others helping out. It very well might grow into a medium-sized publisher over years.
I also will keep trying to sell to larger traditional publishers if the contract terms allow.
And I am helping start an indie distribution company for indie and small press publishers to distribute work to bookstores. That will be coming on line this winter.
As well as all that, I am editing for Fiction River, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of WMG Publishing Inc.
So if anyone cares if I am an indie writer, the answer is nope. I sell all my work to corporations. And I work part-time to help out a new corporation get started.
But I can tell you what I am (besides a self-published writer for this blog).
I am a writer.
I am a writer who likes getting paid for his work and getting it to readers who will enjoy it.
Past that, I couldn’t much care what anyone calls me.
Why?
Because I’m having fun, that’s why.
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Copyright © 2012 Dean Wesley Smith
Cover art copyright Philcold/Dreamstime
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Just a quick question. Why is it self-published authors are expected to never grow a larger business? Do you mean grow a larger business other than selling their own work? I was curious what you meant, and was hoping you could expound.
M. Dunham, the nature of how I divided self-published authors and indie authors is the reason. If your business is going to grow, you have to form a press and business name and so on and move into the business side of things, which means under publishing terms, you become a small press. And then from there you can grow. I said that about self-published authors only because under the way I was dividing it out, self-published authors never start their own press or publishing house. They only publish under their own name. I suppose it wouldn’t be impossible to grow large with only your own name on everything, but that cuts out so many sales channels, I can’t see how it would work, honestly. And besides, it’s simple to start your own press and become a business. Just read my “Think Like a Publisher” posts under the tab above.
Thank you! I figured that’s what you meant, but I wanted to make sure.
Why? To the best of my knowledge there is no legal requirement that I publish under another name than my own in order to grow a business. It is called DBA and works very well for many small businesses. I don’t see how being a “corporate entity” (yes, I’m rolling my eyes) would help my sales in the least.
J.R., I think you missed my point completely. I wasn’t putting down anyone or any business. And you don’t need a DBA unless you are using another name, thus have started a press and thus are an indie or small press publisher.
Indie presses and small presses can grow into multi-million dollar businesses without an issue. So you missed my point I think.
I knew I should have never done this post.
Don’t be sorry for the post! I loved it! The various reactions have been interesting, and in some cases, rather telling about the speaker’s business knowledge. I like how you brought together information about how the publishers have referred to themselves, then added the new(er) categories.
Let’s be honest. You get pushback on every business-oriented posts. A lot of writers don’t like to think about it. How dare you bring it up again, and again, and again. (grin)
(T.R. if you have a DBA, then you are in the second category because you took the extra time to make it officially a business.)
Entrepreneurs?
Sot on the money, goldhawk. Spot on. Thanks!
I like this breakdown. I’ve kinda liked the trend these days of calling self-publishers and indies “DYI Publishers.”
I suspect that your effort to divide self-publishers and indie publishers is hopeless, not so much because of the concept but because “indie” is way shorter to type than “self-publisher.”
Slight quibble (though I do agree with you)… What exactly do you mean by DYI? “Do Yourself, It”? Very Yoda.
I mention this because I have seen DIY (Do It Yourself), of the Maker ethos, transliterated in several locations lately and I wonder if I am missing the point, or if there was a transcription error somewhere.
Yes, it’s the Yoda version. (headdesk)
Or maybe “Do You In” – me being a mystery writer….
I used to care about this stuff before. I really don’t know why. I do know that I don’t care anymore. All I care about is trying to get out more product, which I’m trying to do during this major, looong life roll, yeesh.
Thanks to you, Dean, I have a publisher name, separate checking account, etc. I have a pen name, under which I’ve published 2 novelettes. I have 3 novellas (in 1 series), and 2 short stories. And I’m nearing the finish line with my first novel.
The only thing left to do is set up a site for my publishing company.
I can liken this to people being obsessed with titles in the corporate office. I used to be that way too, until my job was jettisoned. Funny how being on unemployment & wondering how you’re going to pay the mortgage make you forget the title – or label – stuff.
That may change in the self pub/indie/whatever business too, as more and more people realize the label doesn’t matter.
“As well as all that, I am editing for Fiction River, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of WMG Publishing Inc.”
Would Fiction River be considered an “Imprint” of WMG Publishing Inc.
I like the concept of having multiple “Imprints” along with multiple pen names. HA!
allynh, yes, I suppose Fiction River is considered an imprint.
I am a proud indie publisher, both before and after I read this column…but it’s nice to know that I actually fit the definition!
Though for some it may be like talking to a brick wall making distinctions, I appreciate it. There is something helpful about defining terms and going back to square one sometimes. I started as an Indie Publisher from the beginning, Founders House Publishing LLC. In my case, I’ve co-written books with others and published them. I’m publishing myself own stuff even if I’m sharing other people’s stories and collaborating. I’ve done a lot more of my own solo books and stories over the last several months since I found Dean’s and Kris’ sites. I hope to build my list features a lot my own work, both under my name and under pen names–plus the works of select other writers who want to work with me.
I love this post. It reminds me of couple of Comic Book Geeks arguing on the difference between a Retcon and a Reboot. Nerdgasm!
If you were wondering a Retcon or “Retroactive Continuity” is changing the backstory of an on going series (whether that change is large or small), and a Reboot is restarting the storytelling on a series.
So the 2009 movie Star Trek was reboot with a side of retcon, and the Star Wars prequels were retcons.
Clear as mud?
funny post.
and it comes in a moment that Germanwriters/authors begin to discuss how the independant ones should name themselves – practically exclusively looking for English terms. Only one German word is around – “verlagsunabhängig” -; But this, sticked at a writer as person and not at the pocess, excludes those who publish with any kind of press.
I like these definitions. I’ve had people argue with me on what term to use, but as I approached this like a business calling myself ‘self-published’ didn’t quite fit. But to dare call myself indie? GASP! No, can’t do that! Smaller publishers took that name onto themselves before the latest changes in the publishing field, and don’t anyone else dare use it to describe their own one-person BUSINESS.
It gets old really fast. Meanwhile, I am running a business while also writing like the wind.
I love the writing part of that equation, and the writing side likes knowing it has a home when finished.
>>This kind of press should be avoided by writers at all costs. They have existed in publishing forever and will continue on due to the stupidity of writers with more money than brains.<<
I know someone who works for a vanity press. And according to him, there are PLENTY of stupid writers with more money than brains. Writers so stupid that they can't even follow the directions the vanity press in question lays out. So, I don't think Vanity press is going away anytime soon…..
Craig
Sadly, Craig, I agree.
I’d like to hear where you draw the line between “Indie Publisher” and “Small Press”. I guess it depends on the size of the whole operation, maybe “more than 5 different writers get published” or “more than x $ earned”.
Bur there isn’t any difference in professional attitude, as far as I understand definitions?
Frank, guess I wasn’t clear. Indie writers ARE small presses at the same time. Any press that earns under 50 million a year is considered a small press in the publishing world. That includes most indies who have a press name. I was just defining terms. Not breaking them apart.
It is sorta cheesy, but I am somewhat fond of “authorpreneur.” Since I don’t feel like I fit into either of your first two categories (although you note people can straddle them project-by-project), I’m going to go with being an AP.
I haven’t done an LLC yet for solid reasons that have nothing to do with writing or publishing. I expect to create a single member LLC this year, however, as I am soon removing those impediments. Despite not having the LLC, I work at creating a brand, publishing under multiple pen names, releasing far more than “occasionally,” and developing more income streams via new distribution channels and alternate media. Before peak Christmas season is upon us, I will be in audio and print and I will add two new ebook channels. I never look at something as “oh, my, I’m just a writer, I’d have no idea how to do…” I see a new income stream and I set about learning how to exploit it for my work.
I love both parts of being an AP
Folks, I would HIGHLY SUGGEST you not do any form of corporation until the size of the business grows and you need it for taxes or other reasons. Too damn much paperwork for little or no return at lower levels.
I want to go direct with Apple, which runs the legal name of the TIN owner. If that TIN is a SSN, it would be my real name.
I know an LLC doesn’t give complete anonymity (outside of Delaware LLC) but most people are too lazy to figure out where the LLC registry site is for a given state and need to know the state. Couple hundred to form LLC and I believe it all still goes on my 1040 for federal.
Dean, the other term being discussed is “trade” publishing.
There is one writer’s board which believes that the word should be “trade” instead of “traditional.” Traditionally published writers on this board say they are offended by the word “traditional.” According to their reasoning, there are two kinds of writers, self-published and trade published, with trade further divided into large and small. They also claim (incredibly enough) that Indies who use the term “Indie” are trying to misrepresent what they are doing.
The problem I have with “trade” as a distinction is that my dictionary defines trade as buying and selling commodities. It seems to me anyone who sells a product for payment is involved in trade.
Silly stuff. You asked why we can’t all be writers. That would make us all equal and there will always be people who want to feel superior. It’s too bad.
I’m with ya DW!
Just don’t call me late for dinner!
I have been following your posts for over a year and have set up a small press where I am publishing a number of books which are being sold on Amazon and Smashwords. Am I making a lot of money?
No, but I am making some money.
More important for now I am learning and having fun writing. I don’t have to take the time scratching out query letters to agents who either never answer or send a form rejection. I just focus on trying to improve my writing and enjoy selling some of the things I have written. I am still trying to learn the art of designing a cover and writing an effective blurb. I am improving, but not there, yet. Thanks for the post, Dean.
Myself, I am a simple (and sometimes impatient and insensitive) person. I make two distinctions:
“Selfpub” – I control all the money. I pay people. (edtior, etc.)
“Tradpub” – someone else controls all the money, and pays me.
Beyond that, distinctions can be nice and helpful, but ultimately not worth arguing about IMHO, because I doubt people will agree on definitions any time in the next decade or so.
Press size, however, can be added for further clarity. “I selfpub with my own small press.” “My short story is tradpubbed with a small/medium/large press.”
I do tend to refer to myself and other self-published authors as “indies,” mostly because I use it to refer to those who selfpub but may also tradpub. A lot of us do both, myself included.
I agree with your summary. Indies are a bold lot. We dare to go where no publisher or agent has allowed us to go before. Our mission is to seek out new methods for publishing and to seek out new civilizations of readers for our written words. So why not call us ‘INDIE-TREKKIES’?
Self-Publishing is the alternative to the hassle of finding an agent and publisher and endless submissions by post. At least self-publishing offers a chance for success. As a writer I spent enormous time, money, and effort trying to publish my books with agents and publishers. I finally decided on self-publishing and it was the best way to go. Ebooks has become a new market for authors, especially if you are self-publishing your own book.
Well, shoot. Here I called myself a “self-publisher”, and proudly owned that term, because I do it all — write, edit, design, layout and cover. But since I set up a press name, got a bank account and bought my own block of ISBNs and all that, now I’m a small press. Darn. I thought I was on the cutting edge. (grin)
My recent experience on a panel with a small publisher persuaded me that this argument is not going away soon. We writers may call ourselves whatever we like, but small publishers are hanging onto the term “indie” or ‘independent” as stubbornly as a dog with a bone. The ones I’ve talked to feel like they’ve earned their “street cred”, and we uppity latecomers haven’t earned the right to it.
I know you don’t want to engage in a long debate on this, and I don’t blame you. It will probably settle itself over time. I just want to say that there is still a lot of defensiveness and oversensitivity on this issue on the part of small publishers. And while your definition might make me an “indie” or small publisher, I’ll probably continue to call myself a self-publisher. I insist on owning that title, and damn the stigma.
I have become quite partial to the term micro-publisher. Meaning, publishing a limited number of writers (one) at a (at the moment) limited turnover.
On the other hand “Gentleman Publisher” also has a nice ring to it.
Hello, Dean. I love your always very informative and generous blog.
This post is interesting, as are the comments. I will definitely look into your “Think like a Publisher” articles now. I always welcome new ways and opportunities to increase my incoming and I couldn’t care less about how that will define me in the future. I’m a writer first, everything else second.
Anyways, I’m curious about how you would define for example, someone like Amanda Hockey.
She is/was a self-published author, right? And then she contacted or was contacted by a traditional/legacy/trade publisher to publish some books through them, which makes her a trad-published author now.
I don’t think she ever started a small press or a specialty press, or anything like that, yet she made a lot of dollars out of her books.
My point is, she didn’t need to, I think, to be incredibly successful – unless I’m mistaken and she did. What do you say to this? Do you think that maybe, if she started a small press with her name or something, she’d be, I don’t.. as rich as Rowling?
CP
Claudia, if you are talking about Amanda Hocking, then you are correct, from my knowledge. In the early days of this new world, she didn’t start her own press (many writers did not, including me and Kris with our first books published indie) and I’m not sure if she has yet to start a press name. And yup, her books are great and she sold them for a ton of money to St. Martins.
It’s always the writing that matters. I’m just trying to help people be a little smarter with their business is all. And help writers understand reader perceptions.
Also, Amanda Hocking was one of the early adaptors. Trust me, two years later, it’s a very, very different world. But my gut sense is her books are such good reads, she would have done fine in this new world as well. With or without a press name.
(Honestly, as much money as Amanda Hocking has earned in her online and traditional sales, she should be a corporation or two by now. That would be smart business. And she may have done that. I honestly don’t know her or know.)
But that said, it is always the writing that matters. Always.
My article was just to help people understand the differences in the names is all. Sorry it bothered you.
Hi, Dean.
Now I am sorry that you thought I was bothered by this post.
The post did not bothered me at all. On the contrary, so please don’t think that.
In fact, it made me realize the many different types of publishing there are, something I was not entirely aware of, that is, I didn’t know there were so many ways to publish books.
The vanity press – scam publishers, however, are a reality here in Portugal, unfortunately. There are many, many vanity presses around here, way too many for a country this size. Every time I see an advertisement, and there’s one new almost every week, I cringe, thinking about the poor souls that will fall for that. Then, once in a while, I read in some blog, one such poor soul complaining about it, disappointed about the writing life, and loosing all faith in herself. It’s sad, really.
“I’m just trying to help people be a little smarter with their business is all.”
Absolutely. I did learn something today, reading this post, so thank you for writing it. I just read Kris’s post on this same subject and I was even more enlightened. Again, I was not aware there were so many ways to publish books.
Yes, I meant Amanda Hocking. Where did I get that Hockey from? No idea.
The books I’ve read so far are pretty good. So good I can’t read them at night, because they won’t let me sleep.
And she could be a corporation, yes. I actually thought about that. But according to her blog, if I read it right, she only wants to write, not thinking about editing and getting covers, and all that, which is the reason for celebrating a contract with that publisher, apart from also wanting to reach that part of the reading population that still buy books in bookstores. So, I gess, a corporation would be too much work for her.
Good. I’ll take the corporation thing and become as rich as Rowling and beat her in her own field.
Kidding, of course.
This is all my own assumption, of course, I don’t read her blog very often. I only mentioned her as she is a good example of something gone extreme, i.e., a self-publisher who got really, really well on her own. I didn’t mean to say she was a exception to the rules, or anything like that, I meant to say that there’s a possibility you may make a bunch of dollars in any of the different ways of publishing your work. Except for the vanity one, of course.
Well, I better stop putting down words in here.
Thank you for replying, Dean, and good night for me, good day for you and Kris.
CP